Small Brokerage Growth vs Carriers | Episode 274

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome back everybody. Episode 274 of the Freight 360 podcast can be the three of us today Me, ben and Steven the freight intern. We're going to talk about some. We're going to actually record a live conversation that we were all sort of texting each other over the weekend and we'll see where it goes. But first make sure to check out all the other content Freight360.net, obviously, youtube. We're getting more popular and active on a lot of the social sites, so X formerly Twitter, linkedin and all the others. Check out Freight Broker Basics on our website if you're looking for a full-length educational option, and make sure to continue to share us with your friends like do all that stuff that helps us get in front of more folks. We're going to have a record year this year with our growth. Ben, I think our are we are we at 100K on our group online now on.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Facebook Probably. I know we hit over a million downloads.

Speaker 1: 1:16

We hit a million downloads, yeah, yeah. Well, we hit the million specifically on YouTube earlier this year, but we had a million overall downloads. Might have been at the beginning of this year. Let's see. Our Facebook group is up to about 90,000 right now, so we're we're almost over the hump, so keep sharing us there. I have a feeling the 2025 is going to have a is going to, you know, probably into 26, is going to create a large demand for people to learn about brokerage, given the cyclical, the market changes. We'll see, but, yeah, get out of the curve and hop in there before. Before it's too late, we can update our media packet.

Speaker 2: 1:56

I don't think those stats are on there, Just as a side.

Speaker 1: 2:08

I other day because we had to send that out to a couple people and I was like, oh yeah, we do like once a year. So I mean, we get, we get blasted by like companies all the time that want to like come on the show or sponsor something and um, more so than not, it's like either just garbage or not relevant, or you know they didn't. They're just not at the point where they can afford to pay. You know the going rate for a sponsorship on a podcast of a medium size like ours, but yeah, we'll have to update it. We're still dishing out early 2024 rates to folks. All right. Anyway, sports, I'm going to save NFL for the end here, but I want to hand out a couple things.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Did you guys see Juanan soto, the pitcher, signs of 15 year, 765 million dollar contract. It's the biggest ever, right, like it's the. I'm not a fan of these mega contracts. I think they're literally just there for, like, I got the biggest one. You know what I mean. Like I, I literally think that. But, um, I don't know this guy's played for what's it. He came from the Yankees going to the Mets, but I think it was San Diego and somewhere else. But yeah, like when's the first billion-dollar contract going to come out?

Speaker 2: 3:17

Hey, free markets they're creating the values back to the companies, whether it's marketing, media, I mean. That's the thing is like. I think you know, a long time ago there was an argument that was like oh you know, how does this person make this amount of money? To play a sport, to hit a ball, to shoot a basketball, whatever it was right.

Speaker 2: 3:36

But it's like, if you look at the amount of dollars and value it creates whether it's through viewers, whether it's through merchandise, whether it's, I mean like they wouldn't be spending it if it wasn't generating a return on that investment and at the end of the day, that's free market right.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Sure is Formula One. I hit on a couple of times this year I've been. I've been watching it more and more. So anyone out there that's an F1 fan? The season wrapped up in Abu Dhabi last weekend. More so anyone out there that's an f1 fan? The season wrapped up in abu dhabi last weekend. Um, the the uh driver championship was already a one early in earlier in the season max verstappen won.

Speaker 2: 4:13

He won like the second or third he's still racing, for he was for red bull austria.

Speaker 1: 4:17

Yeah, he's red bull, okay um, the constructors went to maren in this final race. So I think that's going to be like your, your two big, like your big matchups in the next year, cause you kind of saw it If you've watched any of it, like around around the time of the Miami grand Prix earlier in the year, down in your neck of the woods, ben is when, like, red Bull started to like lose steam and McLaren started to pick up. So but you got some big moves happen. Anyone who knows anything about F1 probably knows Lewis Hamilton. He was a stud for a number of years. He's moving to Ferrari.

Speaker 2: 4:51

He's got the most championships of all time, I think, doesn't he? Doesn't he have seven?

Speaker 1: 4:55

I think so. Yeah, I think Max is now at five, or six Great documentary on Netflix.

Speaker 2: 5:02

By the way, I watched it last weekend senna on airton senna did you watch it?

Speaker 1: 5:07

I haven't yet, dude, I got it. I got it on my, uh, on my, like I haven't. I keep a note list of all the stuff I want to watch and I literally saw that it came out. I was like, oh my god, I gotta, I gotta watch that very, very good I mean honestly, arguably shifted the way the entire sport ran.

Speaker 2: 5:25

I mean there has not been a fatality since the year of his, which was like 92 or 93 and really, really good series.

Speaker 1: 5:35

And that one just came out too Like was it like this? Month maybe, or I think it was like last month, very recently, like I it came up a couple of times and I went back to finally watch it this weekend because I was really excited. Yeah he, um, when did he? When was his?

Speaker 2: 5:54

accident. You said it was in the 90s, 92 or 93, it might be 93, because I think 92 schumacher won I think he was leading the year of his accident um, and they were just trying to re-establish the driver um union, I guess, to basically lobby for safer regulations. And again, long story short, they basically got rid of like computer aids that year. But there was like a big discrepancy. I think michael schumacher still had them in some ways because they built his car after they pulled it back. No one else had them and basically none of the cars were designed to drive without them.

Speaker 2: 6:31

Like they kept improving and made them safer and then they got rid of, basically the safety requirements which were considered driver aids, and then there were two fatalities in that race, I think, at the end and a horrible accident in, like the qualifiers, like it was very, very bad there was a death in f2 a few years ago, um, at I think it was at spa in england.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Um, it's actually in the netflix f1 documentary they have, like it happens I think they're like interviewing lewis hamilton and like it happens in the background behind him, but it's one of the Formula Two races that happened on the same weekend. But F1, I don't think there's been anything. I mean, you had the dude that like started on fire and lived and then retired, but anyway, there's Formula One for you NFL. But anyway there's Formula One for you NFL. So I didn't realize that the Bills defense actually had a bye week this past weekend. I thought they were supposed to play but they didn't show up in LA. But it was the final bye week of a bunch of teams, including my team's defense, josh Allen and his off. Josh Allen literally set like records and lost the game, but anyway, Steve and I have that in common.

Speaker 3: 7:47

Yeah, Well dang.

Speaker 1: 7:51

Join the club? Yeah, but Joe Burrow got a nice dubs on Monday night right Over the Cowboys. How about? Who was the guy that caught the final touchdown and like literally you would have said like slide to run the clock out and then just punch in whatever and he just goes in and scores anyway. Whoever scored your your third or fourth touchdown? Was it 28, 21, final score?

Speaker 3: 8:16

I think so. I honestly didn't.

Speaker 1: 8:18

I've been so disconnected this season I would I like want to say Jamar chase, but I don't think, I don't. I didn't see it happen. Let me take a look here. I gotta, I gotta, check this here. Okay, 27, 20 was the final, so it was 20 to 20. It was jamar chase. Okay, so there's a minute left and he gets a pass from joe burrow. It runs 40 yards and you think like all right, the game's tied. All you got to do is like slide down and like clock kick a field goal and he runs into the end zone, leaving a minute left for Dallas, which they didn't do anything with. But it was great. It was the Simpsons, the Simpsons dub two or whatever, where they dubbed it over with the Simpsons players. I didn't watch that one, I saw some clips from it, but anyway, basically players.

Speaker 3: 9:04

Um, I didn't watch that one. I saw some clips from it, but anyway, basically your nfl playoff picture is.

Speaker 1: 9:07

is is kind of like shaping up now. So you've got really like um, the chiefs pretty much have like just about secured the one seed, um barring a disastrous um couple of losses in their last few weeks and a miraculous billsills 4-0 to finish out the season, which they got Detroit, which is a really hard game. But then Patriots, jets, patriots, steelers Ben I don't know if you know this so they have the same record as the Bills. The Steelers actually control their destiny to the two seed.

Speaker 1: 9:40

Yeah, but they've got a really tough schedule the rest of the year If we both win out, you guys will have a harder strength of schedule or strength of victory, or whatever it is. Yeah, I've been told.

Speaker 2: 9:48

So they got a hard schedule into the end of the season and Pickens is still not expected to play this weekend. So time will tell on how these few games I think they play the Eagles, then the Ravens, then the chiefs.

Speaker 1: 10:05

I think on Christmas Day, Netflix better have their shit squared away, shit together.

Speaker 1: 10:09

Basically. Here's what I think you're looking at for I think literally the 1-7 seed right now in the AFC is who you're going to have KC, buffalo, pittsburgh, houston, baltimore, chargers and Denver. I don't think you see anybody else squeak in there. There's a two-game separation between the Colts and Miami from a wild card. Looking at the NFC Detroit, philly, seattle, tampa, minnesota, green Bay, commanders you could see some movement there. The Rams are in the eighth spot. They just beat the Bills. They're feeling good. Sean McVay is puffing his chest right now. I can see them sneaking in because they're with the Seahawks. You never know, man, they could take that division. Anyway, the playoff picture is kind of setting itself up. Sorry, steven, I didn't mention the Bengals. They are in the 10 seed right now. It's not impossible, it's pretty much possible.

Speaker 3: 10:58

You can go. 9-8. You can go 9-8 and. They always play great at the end of the season, but it's just, I'm over it.

Speaker 1: 11:11

I'm ready for next season, if you get the Ravens, the Chargers and the Broncos to all just lose out and you guys just go on a tear Joe Cool, just launching bombs. Did you see what he warned of the game Monday night? Yes, dude, he looked it. If you guys haven't seen it, look it up. Like it. He, it looked like something out of like saved by the bell, like the squiggly, like fluorescent lines or I don't know what it was, but it's funny anyway. That's, that's your 10 or so minutes of sports. Let's talk some news here. So we sent the newsletter out yesterday, so it's Wednesday right now. We sent it out Tuesdays and Thursdays. Make sure you go to our website at the bottom of the homepage and I think every page has a newsletter, sign up.

Speaker 1: 11:58

The big things I wanted to hit on and Ben, you guys already kind of alluded to it. This is before we were recording. But happy robot, right? This AI, this guy I don't forget his name, the CEO or president, whatever founder was on with Dooner on what the truck and they did like a live demo of him, of him, like the AI call, and I think like it's come a long way. This is not going to. It's not a place where it's going to call shippers for you but operationally carry yourselves like trying to find capacity, negotiate rates, figure out who's available. Pretty impressive, where it's at Right. You guys see the Steven. I'm sure you did. You're like on top of everything on social. But you guys see the steven. I'm sure you did. You're like on top of everything on social. But you guys see any of the demos or?

Speaker 2: 12:47

I listened to a demo in july and kevin hill had been using it. I met with them a couple times in the summer to hear it. I mean, even back then and I know it's improved since then I could not discern it from a human voice like I closed my eyes and had him play a couple to just see if I could tell, and I really could not like it from a human voice, like I closed my eyes and had him play a couple to just see if I could tell, and I really could not like. It was very, very good.

Speaker 1: 13:07

I've had. So I remember like, uh, uh, probably since the last like seven or eight years, about once or twice a year, I get a. I would get like a robo call from a attempted AI voice trying to get me to donate to some police association and like you could tell it was just like really, really far off and I was like, are you a real person? And it was like I represent a real person and I was like click, like it's just terrible. Whereas, like I wonder, if you were to ask happy robot like hey, am I speaking to an AI or a real person? What would it say?

Speaker 2: 13:42

I did ask that. I can't remember the answer. I was curious because I did ask that question.

Speaker 1: 13:46

I said the way that it had like ums and uh, like you know the kind of like the normal um speech patterns, yeah, like your, your break breaks and speech patterns and things like that, it like it literally reacted like a human would. So pretty cool, pretty cool. The other thing, um and this actually, speaking to kevin hill, this came from from his data on brush pass was the brokerages closing. So I gotta pull this one up and see, here it is freight brokerages keep disappearing as the industry wraps up. 2024 november, we had 181 more closures bringing bringing the monthly average to 257. That's brokers going out of business per month. The US now has nearly 2,900 fewer brokerages than expected, even as freight volumes hint at recovery. So, yeah, that's kind of your normal market correction there. We've seen it with the motor carrier side and as well as the brokerage side. Doesn't it feel almost like it's taken longer than it should have for a lot of companies to go under and just shut down operations.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Yeah, I think a lot of it was because of it.

Speaker 1: 14:57

We're just going on and on for dear life Like, hey, it's going to change, it's going to turn around and yeah, but who knows, you know, I it's funny. So like handset the, the market rebound dat actually reported or actually this was freight waves um freight volumes showed a slight post gate post thanksgiving bounce but remained down compared to last year with no major uptick expected before year end. Um outbound tender volume index that's definitely a free waves thing rose 16.3 week over week but dropped 7.3 over two weeks. Um, how do you take december? Normally, like we're, we're just about middle of december. This is when I typically see like it's going to be quiet for about three weeks, yeah, and then usually January, depending on like the market. January I tend to see is kind of soft. You know it also depends on what you're in, but you know on, you know on the whole, you know across the board. That's kind of what I've seen just about every single year.

Speaker 1: 16:03

So I don't expect anything big to change until we get into January, but we'll see, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 3: 16:09

So in my niche December is usually dead and this year is completely different.

Speaker 1: 16:16

I've already hit my monthly average as of yesterday, this month, for load count or what?

Speaker 3: 16:25

For load count and uh margin getting those big rippers.

Speaker 3: 16:31

Yeah, yeah, more like stacking up pennies, but uh, it's. Yeah, I don't know if it's because I I'm in the imported protein side, if there's something with the tariffs and whatnot, but typically January is, um, I'm in the imported protein side if there's something with the tariffs and whatnot, but typically January is my busy month and December is I'm just slammed. And it looks like January I'm going to be slammed as well, which I'm not mad about. It's just completely different than the last four or five years that I've been doing this, so I'm not sure how to take it.

Speaker 1: 17:04

A little Christmas bonus. Ben, what are you seeing that I've been doing this, so I'm not sure how to take it A little.

Speaker 2: 17:07

Christmas bonus, ben. What are you seeing? I'm seeing the same. I'm seeing more. I mean I've seen it ever since I've been in the industry. What you said it kind of slows down leading right up to Christmas. A lot of companies will do inventory restacking, they'll do drawdowns for end-of-year accounting reasons. They'll do inventory.

Speaker 1: 17:23

Yeah, you don't want to have stuff on the books that is going to be held against you.

Speaker 2: 17:27

So I think I mean a lot of that tends to happen on the calendar year. So I've always seen just the whole industry kind of move slow from here through probably third, fourth week of January. Then it starts to pick up, kind of turn the corner into February, rfps start going out, carriers getting onboarded into the January new year. I mean that's pretty much what I've always seen. I mean, the biggest thing I saw is from everyone I talked to anecdotal, like after Christmas brokers were getting hammered and there was a lot more volatility than I've seen in the past three years. I mean, and it was mostly on a day-to-day basis, which to me showed two things One, the carrier base is shrinking and two, maybe a lot of them also just took an extended time off for the holidays.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Because there were rates that I saw I was looking at a lot of them last week where, like Monday rate was in line, tuesday rate was 30% above what it was Monday and you couldn't get a truck. Wednesday rate was back in line, thursday rate was way back up again. So to me it was showing like the smaller markets where there's not a lot of freight coming out of there wasn't just a ton of capacity sitting there every day of the week to be able to absorb the ups and downs and to me like that's a really good indicator that the market is balanced and supply and demand of freight and kind of the carriers To your point, brokers are going out of business carriers as well. Freight volumes haven't been a ton up. We're still waiting to see, I think, manufacturing pick up before we're going to see real volume changes in freight building and some of those things which are expected, and that takes time right that takes policy change that takes economic shifts, consumer patterns, changing interest rates.

Speaker 1: 19:05

You can't even make a list of 10 things that'll change it. It's literally so many factors that go into it, and it was the perfect storm post COVID. So if you got into brokerage in the last five years, I'm sorry, but your reality is definitely warped. Steven, you got into brokerage in the last five years, didn't you? Yeah, five years ago right before COVID.

Speaker 3: 19:23

Alright, the last five years, didn't you?

Speaker 3: 19:24

yeah, yeah, five years ago, right before, uh, covid, all right, gotcha well, it's funny, I will say good I was just gonna say to add on to the anecdotes uh, looking at, like our impressions in our google analytics, uh, week over week for the last couple weeks, like our traffic is through the roof now what that means in terms of people optimistic for the market, or if broker transparency is that hot of a topic. It's just driving a bunch of traffic. But it is interesting to see Because I've noticed that before, when there was some news earlier this year of the market swinging, traffic kind of went up on the website and some of our social media platforms, with'm sure people researching freight bridges and whatnot.

Speaker 1: 20:08

so those are telltale signs. It's funny like one of the guys that works for me started in may of 2022 and like, literally, all he's known is a soft, loose market and he's and like double brokering and fraud and he's like what? Like? Why do people work in this industry? Like he's like, literally, you can't, like you could never take some of the stories that we deal with and put them in another industry and it's like, yeah, that's normal. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like you kind of have a tainted image, though, because you literally came in and all you've seen is this gray cloud hanging over us for two and a half years, I was like, I promise there's good things around the corner. So we've had record months October, november. This year, though, it's a mix of organic growth, agent acquisitions and just overall freight volumes and rates in certain geographical areas and lanes that have ticked up.

Speaker 1: 20:59

I'm optimistic, feeling good about it. I have no issue with a soft December and January, just to kind of take a breath. Remember, people take time off for the holidays, like you said, ben inventories, so just keep that all in mind. These are great times to have conversation with your customers about upcoming things. That's probably a great episode for us to do before the year end. I know we typically do a discussion about that, so we'll have to squeeze one of those in sometime before New Year's. Um, but yeah, I'll be. Uh, actually I'll be in Nashville next week so you guys might be podcasting just the two of you We'll see Um, cool. Oh, and we're going to have freight broker guy on an upcoming episode of the podcast. So if you guys know this mysterious freight broker, guy on uh, twitter x.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Um, he's coming on the show. Yeah, aka ken oaks, ken oaks, yeah, um, all right, so I'm gonna pass it over to you guys and I'll, I will be the uh, I'll kind of be a sidebar. Uh, hop in and give my two cents here and there. But this past weekend we were all group texting and like, um, steven, you started texting over like these ideas and these thoughts and I was like, is this guy like 12 beers deep or is he just have like a really crazy thought just spinning in his brain right now, or both, I have no idea. But um, we were talking about. This involves like the brokerage side, the asset side, and what's cool is the three of us have all worked both sides Right, like Stephen, your company now, like you, guys have both sides For me, we have both sides, ben, both sides Right, you've seen it. But so so take me through your thought process here, stephen, and I'll let you guys start the conversation off and I'll hop in when I feel appropriate.

Speaker 3: 22:45

Yeah, I'm going to go back to the original text I sent, because it all stems from these ADHD rabbit holes that I just kind of let go unfiltered and I'm like, well, I got to talk to somebody about this because there's a grain of something in here. I just can't find it. There's a grain of something in here, I just can't find it. But the question I propose, and most of it comes from, like you see, these larger brokerages RxO is one of them, loadsmart is one of them that are buying up other brokerages to expand their market share, and it's a good strategy. And then my thought is so I'm a carrier based brokerage, um, the brokerage was born out of the carrier to help provide services to their customers, and they're just not run efficiently. And if you go and talk to other carriers that have brokerages, they all tend to say the same thing they are very uh, uh, they don't grow very fast. They kind of serve as existing accounts or expand existing accounts now that they can provide, you know, outside coverage, um, but the actual growth?

Speaker 3: 23:54

and sales and the streamlining of a back office process to really promote that. You know, low overhead and uh and margin is just not there. So then the thought is like is there a way that you could buy up these small brokerages that are carriers, assigned to carriers, leave them in place but then just inject them with the sales and the the streamlined processes that they need? Cause the other downside to a carrier is because there's such a thin margin industry they have, they're very risk averse, or I can't think of the word I'm thinking but they don't like to invest in tech. So you get a brokerage that's kind of tech dependent, but then a carrier that doesn't want to do it. So now you're fighting these two different areas and it's just not conducive to either environment. So how do you? How do you solve that problem?

Speaker 1: 24:58

all right, so let me summarize your thought here so I understand that. Um, the concept would be to acquire these small brokerage legs that exist, as, like a, you know, a little side hustle for a carrier so carrier runs trucks also has a little side brokerage that they don't focus on. I want to acquire those and grow them. Is that the concept?

Speaker 3: 26:31

Yeah, that's yeah. Without getting into the weeds, it's like half the concept.

Speaker 1: 26:37

Ben, what do you got?

Speaker 2: 26:39

I think I start back at the motivation, because the first thing that I thought of when Steven said that was you. You know larger companies that have acquired brokerages where it has worked out. Many of these have not worked out like. The biggest example, I think, was coyote or whatever. Or there was a huge one they bought and then ended up selling for like 50 a year or two later because they couldn't integrate it right. I know there's like I think it was fed, wasn't it? No, it was USPS, or FedEx, usps, but I think Coyote, and they're like oh, we're just going to integrate this brokerage into our model, get tons of efficiency and it's just going to be super profitable.

Speaker 2: 27:16

Well, my interpretation of even just the big example was these are very different businesses. Ltl and small package shipment has a very different predictability to it than full truckload. Full truckload operates in a very open market that fluctuates a lot, like I was saying earlier, like seeing rates change day to day based on how many trucks are just in that city that day to pick up those loads. Right, you can see huge variations, which is one thing that is very different. Ours is much more volatile than LTL, small package and other types of logistics FedEx, for example, or even UPS. They're very good at finding efficiencies because there's a very predictive nature to their business. They have less volatility, so efficiencies end up bringing out lots of dollars. You can't apply that same thing to a very volatile market, which is why I think it was destined to fail. So when smaller companies the only times I ever really see those deals work is one can you buy the brokerage for a number that makes sense. Lots of brokerages I've come across and even looked at in the past year for acquisition they want multiples that just don't make sense, like you would need to run that brokerage for six years without losing a customer in order to pay back what you bought it for, and like that's just way too long of a timeframe, I think, in a lot of cases to buy a company like that.

Speaker 2: 28:36

The second thing is why the motivation to start these brokerages? Because I think the understanding of why they're in the position they are is based all the way back to why they started it in the first place. I think lots of smaller carriers open a brokerage in very tight markets where this trucking company is like look man, we're getting $2.75 a mile right when the market rate is $2.20. But they never ask why they're getting that rate. So the reason that shipper pays them above market rates in those tight markets and why the contract rate has been so high outside of covid is the shipper.

Speaker 2: 29:14

When the market is going up and down and they don't know if they can get trucks, they go directly to a carrier. They go we'll pay you a little more than market. Just guarantee us your trucks will pick up the load. The shipper gets less risk, the motor care gets a higher rate in that market. Okay, then the small motor care goes man, they want to give me 10 loads a day. I only got five trucks. Let's just open a brokerage, take the five loads we can't move on our own trucks and we will just broker these out at two bucks a mile and make more money.

Speaker 2: 29:43

I think a lot of them do that really kind of backwards where they'll literally get the tenders into the motor carrier asset MC, hand it to the brokerage. They broker the trucks, don't tell anyone, and then the trucks just show up Like that's not the way the license functions, that's not the way the market is supposed to function. But I think that's literally the motivation and why it happens. And then, as soon as the market loosens up, the business dries up and then the brokerage is just sitting there with no business and I'm like well, why isn't this making money? Well, I don't think they ever really operated the brokerage the way a sole brokerage operates, which is we focus on sales, service and helping wherever the need is, and what happens is the smaller carriers. When they do this, they also, I think, conflate or think these things are the same, meaning like I'll just take my dispatchers and put them in our brokerage because they're just sending trucks. It's the same job. And they're staffed with people that are trained to route trucks and dispatch staffed with people that are trained to route trucks and dispatch. They're not trained or have worked in an environment with brokers that are used to selling and service where the customer needs it. Those are very different needs, right, and when you just can provide what your customer needs right now for cheaper, you can make money. But if you can't provide a service that is different from anyone else, when the market is soft, you got no business, and that's the position I think many of them are in and why they're like well, this just isn't working.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Well, to your point, stephen, in order to fix that, you need sales training, sales focused people. But not only do you need those, they are the riskiest things to invest in. Like, if you look at the cost, like to just hire one salesperson, right, call it five grand a month, right, and it's different where you are in the country, but you're going to expect to pay that person to train them for at least six months before they're even getting traction. They are not even going to cover their own expense to probably eight months to a year if they're very, very good at that role. Let's just put aside that nine out of 10 people that get hired into this job aren't going to end up making it that far. So not only is it risky to find the person, even when you find the person, you have to outlay five grand times nine months. It's a 50, $60,000 bet onto a person, and one's probably not enough to turn that around. You probably need two or three, which means now you're hiring five people at five grand a month. That's $25,000 a month of you just burning cash hoping this pays off.

Speaker 2: 32:15

Now let's take the second piece. You need somebody to manage and oversight to make sure those folks are still doing that for that period of time and those companies don't operate the same, so that is a new type of business and most of them not only don't have the just experience doing it because they've been running trucks, which is a different business model, they also, I think part of like the mentality of the truck drivers and trucking company owners is like we built this with hard work and I agree, agree and I think that is absolutely commendable. But I also think there's the ego downside of well, if I can do it here, I can do it there, without the open-minded piece of asking more questions of like why does this business operate different than me? Because when I've worked with some of them, that's the biggest hurdle is getting them to see really that they're very different and they add value in different ways to the same market, even though both are picking things up and moving things to another place.

Speaker 1: 33:12

I mean, wow you, you unpacked a lot there. I was going to hop in really quick because there's there's two points I wanted to make. It was one main point that you hit on was that a lot of times these, these carriers, their brokerage that's attached to them, is not their main focus. Like you said, they don't operate the way that a standalone brokerage would, and I've seen this in a couple of different instances. I just want to highlight this.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Let's say a shipper and this is the less common one a shipper has enough outbound volume that they want to get their own trucks. Now they realize that their trucks they don't have enough capacity, so they want to open a brokerage and keep it all controlled internally. I've seen this with farms, a lot potato shippers, specifically potato shippers in New York. I've seen it with various other ones. Like a town I used to live in had, I mean, they grew peppers, cucumbers, all kinds of stuff. Basically, they would have enough trucks to move their stuff and then they'd never want to have too many trucks because they don't want to have to go out and chase freight, they just want to be able to move their own stuff and then whatever's overflow they can either put directly onto an asset-based carrier that they have a relationship with, or they could broker it out potentially, and then maybe they can broker out some other customer stuff. But either way or the other example is just a motor carrier that has customers and they have not enough trucks or not the right equipment or not enough reach geographically to service all their customers. So, hey, let's get a brokerage and we can still be your main point of contact and we'll service you on this sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 34:52

So in both of those instances and the second one is the more common one that I've seen the brokerage exists not because they want it, but because they feel that they need it, and then, when they don't need it, they just kind of let it fall by the wayside.

Speaker 1: 35:10

And that is not the way that a brokerage has to be run if it's going to be run successfully Long term. Because, yeah, I mean, we talk about the ebb and flow of the market cycle and that is where a trucking company if you got to think about taking some of your trucks and parking them during a down market to save on cost, you're definitely not thinking about optimizing your freight brokerage. You know what I mean. Whereas if we're just a non-asset based brokerage, literally like when we know there's a down market and we're a margin based business, like our only option is to is to try and grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, which during a downtime looks flat even though you are growing load count wise. But I just wanted to add that in there is that I think that's the main reason why there's a different perspective, and I've even like so on the agent side of it.

Speaker 2: 35:51

I've done this a couple times.

Speaker 1: 37:11

What's that?

Speaker 2: 37:12

I wanted to stop on that one point because I think it's worth elaborating. I think, even again, personal experience at a large brokerage the whole motivation shifts when the market does so. For a year and a half, while it's tight, the focus is on margin and customer service. As soon as the market switches and it's loose and rates fall, the whole brokerage and every person in it is being told every day and every week focus on load count and new customers, because it's a circle. You acquire as many customers as you can. Focus on moving as much freight as you can so that when the market comes back around again you're positioned well.

Speaker 2: 37:47

And I think that part is harder for a motor carrier, to your point for two reasons. One, you've got to make sure your trucking company is still floating because you've got to pay the bills on those trucks. You can't just lay off a truck. You still got the payment on the truck that you purchased. In a brokerage you can let people go or you can ratchet those down and then, while you're experiencing that, the other part that makes it harder is I think the mentality of a trucking company is different than a brokerage, because the trucking company looks and goes. I'm not doing business for a dollar, like right now. I'm not going to do business for a buck 65 a mile, but there are plenty of other carriers willing to run freight for that and I think it bothers them personally that that's even happening, let alone being able to embrace it with a brokerage and going. Look, even though we're not willing to doesn't mean others aren't, and our customers are clearly going somewhere to get their freight moved. Let's participate in that until the market comes back in our favor.

Speaker 1: 38:39

Yeah. So one last thing I want to hit on and then I'll pass it back to you guys is for for the dual model to work, um, there needs to be a like a certain person or a group of people, depending on the size, that that's their main focus is that side of it, whether it's the asset side of the brokerage side Like I, the potato customer I gave you the example before I went to the first onto the facility, this is like I don't know, probably 2018 or something like that Got to see all their potatoes and the chips that they make and all this cool stuff. And we're talking about their brokerage. And I was like, yeah, they're not really using it. And I'm like, well, you know, the our company has agents. Like you guys could just drop your brokerage authority and run it as an agency and that way you're not paying for insurance and whatnot. And they're like, like you know, we just don't even really care to use it at all when it's you know when, when the market is where the market is, and it's like, okay, um, I've had another, another individual. It was like two guys that ran a small trucking company different situation and they decided they wanted to do the brokerage side and they just kind of ran like a random load or two here and there every week and then eventually, like numbers dropped and it's like, well, what's going on? They're like, yeah, you know, we're, you know, rates are good, we're kind of focusing on the trucking side and it led to their failure because they didn't have somebody there focused and dedicated on just brokerage.

Speaker 1: 40:03

Right, if you look at any one of the three of us on this, on this conversation right now, whether it's Stevens Company, ben your side or myself so like Pierce, worldwide Logistics is a brokerage. Warren Pearson Company is an asset based carrier. Historically, our trucking side dominated the brokerage. We'll get it now Our brokerage dominates the trucking side, dominated the brokerage. Look at it now Our brokerage dominates the trucking side, the difference being we're able to ebb and flow the asset side based on the market conditions, and we have a strong focus on growing the brokerage regardless of the market conditions.

Speaker 1: 40:38

By the way, there's two different groups of people focused on each company. Like the brokerage side, that's me the asset-based side. It's a different group of people. In Florida I see them like once a year. We know each other but like we don't. It's two different focuses, two different types of business. They're co -owned, co-managed by the ownership, but literally you've got two different entities focusing on that side of the business and if you don't operate that way, you're going to naturally lean towards one of them over the other, depending on what's going on in the market, what makes more sense for you, what's making you more money, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 41:16

So I wanted to point those things out. So, anyway, not to hijack Stephen's conversation here about gobbling up these small brokerage divisions on carriers. So actually I want to go back to you, stephen. What would be the benefit or the reason behind it? Because that's what I was trying to grasp in our group chat was like why, why buy them up? Is it to get their customer base and actually try to do something with it? Because they're not currently doing that, or what was the concept?

Speaker 3: 41:46

Yeah, so that's kind of the concept. The concept would be it, it's a, so it's an entity that is, you know, dead or floating Right, it's not really growing, but they, they have customers, they have access to the carrier side. Um, but they, they have customers, they have access to the carrier side. So, just like these larger brokerages that are acquiring themselves, acquiring a large number of small brokerages, you would gain access into these customers, but then you also gain access into the carrier side. And how, how do you create that, that that you know symbiotic environment between the brokerages that you acquire working together but then also the carrier side? You got to keep it split so that they both grow independently, but you got to have that bridge that brings them together when it's needed in a down market or when the market's going up. I mean, there's something there that.

Speaker 3: 42:48

But what is the like finding that that niche is what so like? For example, like our, we have our owner operator program. It's a very small number of trucks currently Um, at one point we were up to 20, but the way they work is they're, uh, they get to run a hundred percent of whatever they want. Um, so it's, if they want just spot freight, they can run just spot freight. If they want to run customer freight, they can run customer freight and they're not forced dispatch. So taking that, that piece and ratcheting onto this, like how do you take those two and make it a thing? And then you gather up all these customers, you implement these owner operator programs and you kind of have this like pseudo land star without a million freight guard reports.

Speaker 2: 43:38

You know yeah, and I think, in its simplest sense, what you're pointing out and this is why I think the conversation was really interesting we were having is, like that's for sure, true, right, smaller companies, trucking companies with a brokerage in this market, not much business going through the brokerage, if any. They have customers, have customers, right, they've got longstanding customers. Those relationships are valuable. Right Now to our earlier point. They definitely need help, either running the brokerage, staffing the brokerage or funding the brokerage, right. Okay, and there's a pain there, right. So if there's a pain and it's large enough, there's usually an opportunity. Okay. So, theoretically, if there's a pain there, right. So if there's a pain and it's large enough, like there's usually an opportunity, okay. So, theoretically, if you took a small trucking company that had 15 or 20 trucks in a brokerage, say, they've got five or six customers they're working with, right. The first question I would think is okay if you just brought one of them underneath an existing brokerage that was well run and that could do better sales functions and better communication, right, those five customers, right?

Speaker 2: 44:36

The first hurdle, I think, is one if they're operating directly with that motor carrier's asset, mc, the first hurdle is how do you get them onboarded with a brokerage, right? How do you get the shipper to agree to run their freight through the brokerage if that shipper specifically only works with that company because they want those assets and those drivers, right? I think that's the first hurdle you've got to overcome. Then I think the second one is if you do that, if you make a deal with a small company that has a brokerage like that and like 15 or 20 trucks okay, well, if those customers are now running through, let's just say, your brokerage, what are you going to do with the freight?

Speaker 2: 45:14

Likely, some of those loads will still go to that company. But in this market you either need to get that shipper to give you more business. Okay, let's take that one. If they give you more loads, say you're running three loads a day with that company in order for the brokerage to get any value out, you need more than those three loads, right? So say you get two more loads. But what is a shipper going to ask to get two more loads given to you in this?

Speaker 3: 45:40

market they're going to favor service or price. Do you think it just depends? In this market they're going to be favoring price, but Okay.

Speaker 2: 45:45

So if they favor price it might be service, of course, but in the market we're in because that's the issue is. The issue is it's harder in the down market than the up market. In the up market it's a no brainer, but in a down market where price is favorable and that shipper goes well, hey man, the first three loads I'm giving you are for two bucks a mile. If you want two more, I need a buck ninety five. Ok, that's pretty status quo, I would say in this market, right? Well, what does that do to your other loads? How long before that shipper starts asking you for the same rate on the other ones and you possibly have the risk of losing some of the value to keep the extra two loads? The next question is you have those two extra loads, you're moving through the brokerage In this market. You've got to find probably a cheaper truck to move them, to make any margin, which is going to be pretty skinny, say 11% right, give or take. Now the question is which is going to be pretty skinny? Say 11%, right, give or take.

Speaker 2: 46:33

Now the question is are they going to service the freight at the same level as your assets? Is there more risk in that right? Are they going to miss some appointments. Because we know that when rates are pushed down, so does service right. And why does that happen?

Speaker 2: 46:45

Because the trucking company needs to make money, so they schedule things closer together, because they got to be able to make a certain number every week to pay their expenses and their drivers, so they're going to book their next load as close to the last load as possible, which is why service tends to fall, because if their delivery is slow to unload, it's no fault of the drivers, it's just that that causes, you know, the waterfall effect of them not showing up on time for your next one. So now that service to that customer, in order to grow, it has at the very least gotten riskier. It may or may not have more issues, but those are some of the things. I think that, as it plays out, that you would have to think through and work through, because I think, overall, like there's a problem large enough that if you could bring them together, you could add that value.

Speaker 2: 47:25

The other issue is like how do you make the money work? Because in order to get that company, you either got to purchase it so if you have investor money, you need a return to pay back or you've got to cut them in on the deal and give them a percentage out of the freight you're going to broker. Well, in a market where you're only getting 11%, if you give them two or 3% and you're factoring it, you're at break even just to run those brokered loads. And it's like how do you squeeze enough juice to actually make the deal work is the part where I keep getting stuck, Because you brought this up years ago and I've thought about it a ton and I'm like I think the problem's large enough, but I don't think the economics necessarily works to create enough value to take the risk to do that.

Speaker 2: 48:03

And that's just putting aside. How much labor do you think it costs? How much training, how much management oversight, how many bodies do you need to put in these? Maybe AI can solve this in a way where, like you don't need as many people as you traditionally did in a brokerage. Maybe that's what makes the math work, but I think you need a piece that hasn't existed yet to be able to make the economics actually function. To do that at any scale, I guess, is the way I was thinking.

Speaker 3: 48:26

Yeah, I don't disagree and I think that kind of alludes to. I can't remember who made this point and I think that kind of alludes to I can't remember who made this point. It may have been Andrew Silver on the freight pod with Chad Olson, I think he's with AVRL. But the the trend to bring you know people who are not native with the logistics industry, to bring in ideas and concepts outside of that into us, can you know, hurt or succeed.

Speaker 3: 49:00

So, like the one thing that I keep coming back to is, uh, alex hormosi and his gym shark. I think it was called gym shark, gym launch, maybe gym launch. Um, like that concept sticks in my head because originally he started off like consulting gyms and like how to grow them and he would get paid a set fee. And then there was, you know, he would go and help them, do some marketing or whatever, and then he found out how to package that into a thing and then he sold this thing to the gym and then that's how he made a bunch of money and he exited at like $120 million or something like that.

Speaker 2: 49:32

So let's unpack that because it's a good one. Like I read his books and I followed a lot of how he did that and like I thought the same thing. What are your thoughts on the differences between that industry of a gym and the industry, the problems gym faces and the problems that carriers that have brokerages face? What do you think are the differences or the similarities?

Speaker 3: 49:56

I think, and I don't know if it's a similar. Actually, oddly enough, my family owned a gym when I was in high school, so I know a little bit about the space. But cashflow is interesting and because of operating ratios within supply chain, you know you can't really sell a service like this to a carrier. You have to purchase with the service if that makes sense. So like you would have to acquire a portion of the business and bring the service with you with some sort of revenue split. I think that's how that would work, whereas in the gym space, depending on how the gyms ran, you know they are more likely to pay for that kind of service if it's going to have an ROI, and that's the other thing is like, measuring ROI in supply chain tends to be extremely difficult, especially when you're coming at it from a tech standpoint sales and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3: 51:00

Roi is one of those things that on the carrier side gets talked about a lot but you never really see any real numbers. It's all just estimations and projections. So how do you, how do you do that and make it?

Speaker 2: 51:14

make sense. I think that a lot of that's true, right, the things that I've seen because technically we have sold a solution similar to that through coaching and consulting for companies that want to make their brokerages more profitable right. So what I've seen and what I think the difference is and I've worked in business to consumer sales probably more of my career now, even looking back than I've done in logistics and the thing with business to consumer sales is, if you've got a good sales funnel sales even just call it a script in business to consumer, you can ramp sales up in a very short time Because if you can talk to enough customers, they are pulling the trigger immediately. And maybe in a gym you're getting a membership for a year, so you can close a lot of customers in a short amount of time and generate recurring revenue all year.

Speaker 2: 52:01

But even outside of that, if you plug in really good salespeople to a gym and I think that's a lot of it is lots of people that probably start gyms aren't salespeople. They're probably people that have an interest in fitness or real estate and wanting to be in those businesses. Sales is that different function, right, but like I've been in businesses and worked in them as salespeople were like we've gone in, and like I've gone into places that were barely making money, three heavy hitters in sales go in and turn the company around inside three weeks, especially like you see it in advertising sales. Like just making cold calls to companies to get them to buy ads. Like you could plug in a killer sales guy and he will outperform the whole company inside of like five to five days, maybe two weeks, because you're just talking to people and you can close them on the spot and that money changes hands immediately. The thing I think that is much different in freight is the sales cycle is longer, right, and your return on that investment of that even phone call to one shipper, right. Even if the first company you call says they will work with you, it's typically going to be three to four months before they're giving you enough business that you really got to return on just paying for the person that made one phone call Just say you were one for one First company you called said yes, a couple of weeks to get some quotes, a couple more weeks to run a couple of loads. Another month or two till you got three or four. Maybe inside of four or five months you got enough business to cover that one person's five grand a month. Right Now, again, if I'm selling gym memberships like I can put a very good salesperson or train many salespeople to close 10 deals a day. They will pay for themselves inside of a week.

Speaker 2: 53:31

And the thing that I think made Alex's business work was that he was able to go in in a short amount of time, teach them sales techniques right, like basic stuff, like getting the members or prospective members in, taking a picture of them, getting them to understand the need, selling on that need, closing them right there, getting that money right there. So he could go to a gym. And that's what he did at first. He's like listen, five grand, I'll turn your gym around. If I can't do it in 45 days I'll give you your money back. He could make that bet because he knew he could inside in that timeframe.

Speaker 2: 54:03

So it's a much shorter risk and I think in our industry what makes it harder is people aren't patient Full stop, no matter what people you're talking to and what industry right, and especially when money's on the line. So we're asking a trucking company to go. Trust me, this plan works. Hire three people and in eight months to a year I'll turn it around. Even if it's working, until they start seeing the money come and pay them back for what they're spending three, four months in, they start getting nervous. They're like man, if I just hired a driver, I'd at least be break even by now. And eventually I think they lose their patience and they go.

Speaker 2: 54:39

You know what I appreciate it, but I'm just going to go back to knowing what it works, because they can't stomach the risk, because it is very different than the risk you take buying a truck, hiring a driver and plugging them into brokers and load boards. They might be able to break even inside of a week or two just on, like your weekly expenditures, and I think that is the big disparity between how he could do that there and what I mean I've tried to do here, and I mean there have been many carriers when I've been able to help them get their brokerages turned around and be profitable, but I would say many more of them honestly, somewhere in the time it takes to be patient to get it off the ground, go look, this isn't for me.

Speaker 3: 55:15

I'm going to go back to knowing what I trust, because I would rather just sleep at night than worry about spending another 25 or 50 grand hoping that this works, because I think that is the part where it gets very difficult in practice yeah, and I think the kind of touch on on that and what's specific to our industry is the uh with what alex ramos has been able to do, is rely on, you know, the social media, internet ad space with landing pages and sales funnels, huge leverage. That leverage does not exist.

Speaker 2: 55:48

Shippers are not finding brokers because of a linkedin post, because of an X post, because of Facebook, like they don't buy those services the same way they buy consumer goods Right. Like you could leverage millions of views into real dollars in a way that just I don't think functions the same way in business to business or, for sure, in supply chain in business to business or, for sure, in supply chain.

Speaker 3: 56:14

Yeah, and I mean going back to you know, when my family owned the gym, I mean the best sales for us was new year, new me, January every year was the biggest sales and you would get two month, three month people. You know, you just soak up those sales and that's something that does, just does not exist.

Speaker 1: 56:31

And say shippers aren't like new year, new broker.

Speaker 2: 56:36

Well, think about it right. Why even it's simple sales like sales 101, you can't provide a solution until you find a need right. The need for human beings at the end of the year is usually make the guilt go away. I'm not happy with the way I feel or look because of the way I ate during the holidays or what I didn't do. That guilt is the pain. The solution sign this. You don't even need to show up. You at least feel better about yourself immediately because you made the commitment right. So that solves that need For us.

Speaker 2: 57:07

Until there's a need in the market again, even very skilled salespeople in our industry, it is difficult to build rapport and to actually find the need for the shipper to solve it right, especially in the market we've been in the past couple of years. That's why the sales cycles have gotten longer. It takes longer to find those needs, to get them surfaced, to be able to be that solution, and I think that's the thing that also makes it an apples to orange comparison. I think there are correlations, but I think it's the time and the risk that is very different. And I think to your point. Being able to leverage social is just not as effective, I think in our world, as it is in some of these other industries.

Speaker 1: 57:47

It's not. Yeah, yeah, cool, good chat guys.

Speaker 2: 57:54

I want to leave it with this.

Speaker 1: 57:55

You guys went down a rabbit hole, and I was just scrolling Twitter. But here's the last thought I want to point out.

Speaker 2: 58:01

I very much think that, like I thought about this a lot and that's why, when he was asking these questions, like I wanted to engage, to talk about it, because I think these thought exercises are some of the most valuable things you can learn how to do the process of thinking through it, because, at the end of the day, just because I haven't found it or someone else hasn't found it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't mean that that pain isn't big enough that you can provide a solution and do what no one else has been able to do Right.

Speaker 2: 58:31

So, to me, like you're on the right path. I think you're thinking about it the right way and you're pulling correlations from other industries and other instances that could apply. Maybe a part of it, maybe all of it, maybe 20 percent, who knows but I absolutely think that you are thinking about this correctly and I think that the more you think about it, you will come up and maybe think of something that no one else has that's worth pursuing, because I think this is how most successful businesses actually end up breaking through is because they're able to approach a problem that everybody has seen the same way over and over, and come at it from a different angle, come at it from a different perspective, or come at it from different information, from other portions of wherever you're learning things. So I mean, I hope you continue digging into it, because I definitely think that there is a huge problem. I think they're in need of a solution. I don't know what it is. These are just the thoughts I've had when I've been trying to think through the same thing.

Speaker 3: 59:28

Look at that and I think and you don't have to answer, but an interesting question I posted last night and I'd be curious to get everyone else's thoughts on what they think but, uh, in terms of a brokerage running a opening and starting a carrier, or a carrier opening and starting a brokerage, who do you think would be more successful?

Speaker 2: 59:53

A brokerage or a carrier Buying a small asset company.

Speaker 1: 59:58

Because I think the harder thing to do is the management.

Speaker 2: 1:00:04

But I definitely think they're not black or white. I just think that the training and the infrastructure to get a brokerage to be successful takes longer, more risk, and if you can do that, you can stomach the risk of the trucking side easier. I think that's why it's harder. From the trucking side. Again, your cash flow conversion is faster. You buy a truck, you hire a driver, you can probably break even inside a month or two. If you're used to waiting six months to a year to get a brokerage profitable, I think you have an easier time acquiring some assets than the other way around, Because I think it's the risk tolerance honestly Like if I had to say the one thing I think that really differentiates them. It's the risk tolerance and the patience of getting those things off the ground that are very different, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:50

All right, I'm putting a bow on that one. Is it? It's interesting conversation. It is, yeah, um. I wanted to wrap up today's with a little preview of uh week 15 in the nfl here ben, a couple of big matchups for our teams here um pittsburgh in philadelphia this weekend, without Pickens too.

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

Without our number one receiver.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

And Philly is favorite by five. You're going up against Saquon Barkley, Jalen Hurts, the gang. What do you got? What's your take? How do the Pittsburgh Steelers have a shot at a W here?

Speaker 2: 1:01:29

I didn't think that they were going to pull off the win last week against the browns without pickens, because without him they were pretty much able to cover everything. For the first at least quarter or so it did not look like we were going to be able to move the ball. Because again, when you got somebody like pickens you at least have you're forcing the other team to double cover him in a lot of plays, which opens other guys up. So without him, I mean, I think we've got less of a chance to probably cover that spread. It's probably the way I'm looking at it now.

Speaker 1: 1:01:57

My hope is that you on that. All right, the bills were favored against the rams last week and tom brady on fox, I think it was was like the only way that the rams have a chance of being the buffalo bills. If they play a perfect game, and which they did because buffalo didn't have a couple of, we, the Buffalo Bills, if they play a perfect game which they did Because Buffalo didn't have a couple of, we didn't have, keon Coleman didn't have, who else were we missing? I don't know we're missing some guys, right, but anyway, you got a shot. You just got to play a perfect game and you got to let. You got to hope. Philly fumbles, yeah, on their side.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

We need the defense to turn over the ball, like a couple of our scores, I think last week, were that the defense turned the ball over and we had short yardage to score so if the defense shows up to your point. I think there's a chance um.

Speaker 1: 1:02:47

Other game buffalo bills detroit lions the only game in the n this week that has an over-under of over 50. It's at 53.5, two high-scoring teams. It's going to be at Ford Field in Detroit, 425 Eastern game. Everyone's going to be watching Possible Super Bowl preview right there. That's just me as a Bills fan saying that, but I'm excited for it. I'll be touching down in Nashville literally about 15 minutes before kickoff, so I'm going to have to get my bag, watch it on my phone, get to a hotel backer bar and tune in. But Detroit's favored by two and a half at home. Keys of the game. There. I like your defensive turnover thing. I think the Bill's defense just has to just show up this week. Just still have 44 points. But uh, steven cleaver, cincinnati at tennessee um, I should just go to that game my uh, my dad will be there whoa, oh, he'll be there.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'll be too late because, that's a one o'clock game. I'll be getting there afterward, but well, anyway, great discussion today, guys, and you know, let us know what you guys think in the YouTube comments or, you know, send us a message on your your thoughts on the brokerage and the carrier, how they can align with one another, and we'll be curious to get some feedback there. So, stephen, any sign off, final thoughts or anything you want to share with the audience.

Speaker 3: 1:04:23

We just put the newsletter up on LinkedIn, so if you're interested in getting it there, you can subscribe on LinkedIn over at Freight360. And go Bengals what's left of the season, I guess. Interested in getting it there, you can subscribe on linkedin over at freight 360 and, uh, go bangles what's left of the season, I guess I bet what you got whether you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right and until next time.

Speaker 1: 1:04:44

I hope the bills don't lose too straight. So in detroit go bills.